DEBATE:
”Faith Freedom International's Ali Sina attempts to contest the solid evidence
for the Quran and Modern Science Debate”
Response #1 to Ali Sina
[ Intro] [Part 1] [Part 2] [Part 3] [Part 4]
dude.... listen.... you aint
no scholar in Islam, you’re a "POSER"... you don’t even have the
prerequisites of being a scholar.. have you mastered the Arabic language?? Have
you mastered any of the disciplines of the Islamic sciences, fiqh, or
jurisprudence? Do you have a letter of recommendation from an accredited
Islamic University verifying that you are a master of a particular field?
The TRUE scholars have
responded to people like you, who go around the ignorant masses, passing
themselves off as "Islamic Experts".... and have simply stated...
" The scholars are who
the scholars say are the scholars...."
and everyone knows who the
scholars are, even, they are in their gatherings, and at times they refute them.......
right? Here are some:
http://islaam.com/Scholars.aspx
I don’t see you name there Ali
lol :)
Rather, Ali Sina, what you
are, is a garbage man. Seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk. You recycle garbage.
The material on your website is simply a "cut and paste" from other
websites, you simply recycle and polish the material and display it on your
website. That’s all. Recycling garbage does not make a person a scholar. The
truth is, people like you are a dime a dozen...
But that doesn't mean that
your website is useless. In today's world there is a great want for people like
Ali Sina.. there are many bigots and hate mongers who have extreme hatred and
loath for Islam, they would like nothing more to rekindle the fire of the
crusades and they need some kind of outlet. Ali Sina gives provides exactly
that.. and caters to that crowd... here is an example of an Ali Sina fan who
just wrote this post on his website forums:
"I try to interprete Islam in a language that nigger Muslims
understand.
As far as I am concerned all Muslims are lowest of the
breed."
in addition to that, I invite you to visit yahoo Islam
chat room, or paltalk social issues room, there you will find many Ali Sina's
clientele... "high" off Ali Sina's website, frothing at the mouth,
hurling all kind of slurs at Muslims from nigger to camel fu@#&r.,
"throw all the Muslims out of
I would like to point out that it is a
prerequisite to first listen to the Ahmed-Giron debate on Quran and Science
which is located on my website: www.ExamineTheTruth.com
To put Ali Sina's refutation in a nutshell, he basically said, that all the
scientific statements in the Quran were ALL coincidences and good guesses. And
he gave some examples of hypothetical possible scenarios of how these alleged
coincidences may have occurred.
these arguments were clearly
refuted in the debate, infact, I was the one who bought them up, and I even
went so far as to provide the human possibilities for these statements which
matched up with modern science!! here they are again:
IF Statement = Scientific fact THEN
(it can be one or more of the following 8 possibilities)
A. Perhaps the author of the statement was a genius
B. A very good guess, luck
C. Perhaps the author of the statement was a great
scientist
D. Coincidence (ex: a poetic statement which just happened
to match
up with science),luck, and the author had no intention of
talking
about science; it was an accident. No intention.
E. Common sense (ex: rain causes grass to grow)
F. The scientific fact is observable.
G. The information already pre-existed in history
(this can only be entertained if we have historical
errors)
H. A source greater than man was involved
I also refuted the
possibilities of all these scientific arguments being coincidences or lucky
guesses:
1. Bee = 1/2
2. Iram = 1/500,000
3. Barrier between the seas = 1/500,000
4. Barrier between salt and fresh waters= 1/500,000
5. complete darkness in the deep ocean = 1/500,000
6. Lowest point on earth = 1/500,000
7. Iron = 1/500,000
8. Orbit = 1/500,000
Therefore, the chances of all
8 scientific statements being
a coincidence is the
following:
1/2 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 *
1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 = 1/3.5 *10^36
What if we say that the
following 8 scientific statements in the Quran were all the product of a good
guess, then the following would be the probability:
1. Bee = 1/2
2. Iram = 1/10,000
3. Barrier between the seas = 1/10,000
4. Barrier between salt and fresh waters= 1/10,000
5. complete darkness in the deep ocean = 1/10,000
6. Lowest point on earth = 1/10,000
7. Iron = 1/10,000
8. Orbit = 1/10,000
1/2 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000
* 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 = 1/2.0 *10^28
ALI SINA DID NOT EVEN
ATTEMPT TO REFUTE MY ARGUMENT!!!!!
Smart people who have listened
to the debate realize that you CAN NOT pass off all of the scientific
statements as guesswork and coincidence, look what one of Ali Sina's fans who
listened to the debate said:
"I listened to Denis Giron's debate and I thought the
argument of 'chance' was rather ridiculous"
here is a smart kid, he knows the pit falls that lie
ahead... I only wish Ali Sina had the same common sense :) , so I will simply
be repeating my arguments... perhaps, the next time around Ali will attempt to
refute them. This is going to be a cakewalk.....
Quran and
Bees....
"You have chosen a few verses from the Quran and
reinterpreted them to correlate with the modern science"
the
same charge was made by Denis in the debate as a "hail marry" attempt
because he was losing the debate, so I came back and challenged him to show me
where? He could not. Perhaps you can?
"Aristotle observed that the brood of
drones appear even when there is no ruler bee in the hive. This is an
accurate observation. As we know today, unfertilized female workers can lay
eggs in the absence of a queen, but the eggs develop into drones. Aristotle
gave a fairly accurate description of the bees with only few mistakes like
confusing the gender of the Queen and calling it the King."
So, where did you learn this fact about
Aristotle? ME! that’s where lol,I have already refuted this argument in my
debate! Rather than addressing my refutation, you came back and simply restated
the objection!!!!!!! omg
Therefore, LET ME REPEAT
MYSELF!!! The point I made in the debate, which you were suppose to respond
to, was that were the following:
1. Showing a scientific
statement already pre-existed in history means nothing. As I have already
explained, how did the author of the Quran know to select this explanations
versus the other wrong explanations which pre existed in history... the books
of antiquity are riddled with scientific errors! How did the author of the
Quran know to select this piece of truth, in an ocean of falsehood and myths?
For example, if a person were
to copy from his neighbor on test day because he did not study for the test, he
runs a risk of still flunking! Because if his neighbor did not study, then he
will be coping the wrong answers to his test paper, along with some correct
answers. So, likewise doing a copy job in the 6th century, is an
even more dangerous job, because the books available are riddled with myths and
legends!
Therefore, if someone were to
say that the Quran was a copy job of Aristotle, then he must also show where
the author the Quran also copied the scientific ERRORS in Aristotle's book,
here is an example of some of the scientific errors pertaining to bees in
Aristotle’s book:
(where honey comb is made
from)
Aristotle’s errors on bees:
1. Aristotle thought that the queen bee was actually a
MALE.
2. bees do not give birth to young but fetch their young
from flowers
(bees are actually grown from eggs)
3. bees come from olives?
4. honeycomb is made from flowers (it is made of wax)
5. wax comes from the gum of trees (it comes from wax
glands of the bees)
6. female bees do not sting, because nature does not
provide females with weapons", i.e., sting
Unless you can show one of
these scientific errors in the Quran pertaining to bees in the Quran, then you
can not accuse the author of the Quran of coping. Another logical error is that
people attempt to show alleged scientific errors which are not in Aristotle’s
books to accuse the author of the Quran of coping! Nevertheless, their are no
scientific errors in the Quran
Since we see that NONE of these scientific errors pertaining to bees from
Aristotle are in the Quran, therefore the author of the Quran DID NOT
plagiarize from Aristotle.
"All Arabs used the same word even before Muhammad"
Yes, but not but the point
which I was making was that the CORRECT roles were given to the female
bee a word which was used by all Arabs.....
In conclusion, the books
available to Prophet Muhammed(P) said that the worker bee was male, some books
said female, and some said both. Which one is correct?? Which books should I choose
?
Therefore, as you can see, Ali
Sina refuted NOTHING!! All I have done here is repeat my ORIGINAL
argument!! Ali didn’t even attempt to try and refute my argument :)
Therefore, here are the 3 take
home points of the issues of bees which have gone UNCHALLENGED!!
1. The Quran is scientifically accurate as far as the role
of the female bees.
2. No evidence exists of plagiarism.
3. If we were to say the author of the Quran guessed, or
it was a coincidence, than the probability is 1/2 (actually 1/3 but I want to
go easy on you guys) .....
#3 is the most important argument
here... because if you say this was a guess, I have 7 more "guesses"
.... you know what that means?
1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x
1/2 x 1/2
yes, you got it FACTORING! So,
you be very careful and use this explanation sparingly :) You don’t want the
probability of all these statements to be guesses to be so high, that it is
impossible :). To say that these scientific statements were all guess and
coincidences is ultimate disaster for the atheist, because of the probability
involved. And you better believe I’m going to pull out my calculator and do the
math in the end....these were there the arguments which Ali Sina was suppose to
refute but he did not
City of
"The destruction of a city is a big event. It is obvious
that people will talk about it and tell its tales to their descendants."
If that logic was true... then
that means we have a record of EVERY destroyed city from the time of Adam,
which would go back BILLIONS of years ago, I would like to ask Ali Sina to
please provide for us that list :)
"Who said no books prior to Muhammad mentioned Iram?"
All researchers agree on this. National
Geographic did an article on Iram, and the only reference they came up with
which mentioned this city was the Quran. One of the critics of the Qur'an
(Wellhausen) stated that Iram was a fictional place. If Ali knows of a book
before the Quran which states Iram as a city, please do share.
Please also read what I wrote
about this "borrowing" allegation that I just wrote above. But, I
really don’t have a problem with this hypothetical possibility, because when I
calculate the probability of SELECTIVELY CHOOSING the name of a city
which the world does not know from a book, only to be discovered 1400 years
later through archaeological find... the number will kill you... :) and to add
insult to injury, I will multiply that number with 1/2 (from the bee), math is
a bi@#@ isn't it?
"Muhammad and his followers destroyed all the books that
belonged to the pre Islamic era of "jahiliyyah". If no other book
prior to Muhammad mentions this city it is because Muhammad burned those
books."
What the..... this is a
complete LIE !!!!!!! Now, Ali Sina, by the grace of God, you have been exposed
as a liar just like Robert Morey:
(http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm)
I am challenging you.... to
show your evidence for this statement which you have made, if you can not, then
this will expose you as a liar once and for all. rather, what we have several
examples of PRE ISLAMIC POETRY:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/poetry.html
http://www.georgetown.edu/departments/arabic/bonnah.htm
Now, Ali Sina, you have
stated:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates.htm
"I invite you to disprove my accusations of Muhammad and
Islam. If you can show that what I say is unfounded I promise to remove this
site not before confessing that I was wrong and Islam is a true religion. "
Therefore, if you can not
provide evidence that the Prophet Muhammed did what you accused him of, then I
would like for you to fulfill your promise.... and take this website down
"The tales of Iram with its lofty pillars must have been in
the lore of the people of
This is your self
self-delusion. Scholars have researched this, and have come up with nothing.
THERE IS NO BOOK OTHER THAN THE QURAN WHICH MENTIONS IRAM.
"and the way Muhammad casually
mentions it with no further explanation is clear that
his audience already knew what he is
taking about. "
petitio principii. Your premises are as false
as your conclusion. The Quran does not state that you are supposed to know
every thing mentioned in this book. This is a false assertion. Rather, the
Quran states the exact OPPOSITE of what you are saying, the Quran clearly
states that there are things about this book which will not be known to you:
3:7. It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this
Qur'ân). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of
the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments, etc.), Al-Farâ'id
(obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves,
adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose
hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not
entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and
seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings
save Allâh. And those who are
firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it
(clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition
except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabarî).
Therefore, my points stand
unrefuted:
1. The Quran mentions a city named Iram, and this city was
later discovered 1400 years later during an archaeological find.
2. I have no problem accepting that the false assertion
that the author of the Quran plagiarized from another source, even though, you
have not provided a single shred of evidence.. the reason why is because you
are not exempt from the math! So here is my probability on any person
SELECTIVELY CHOOSING a city which the world does not know of from a book, and
that city being discovered later in an archaeological dig..
how does.... 1/10,000 sound?
Using the Subjective theory of probability. But if you would like me to go
lower no problem, I will accept any reasonable assessment.
So, here is what we have:
1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/20,000
The same holds true for
coincidence, and guess.
Quran and
barriers.
"anyone going to the sea watching
sweet waters carrying sediments flowing
into the salty waters of the ocean can see they do not mix immediately"
It is a known fact that there
is NO VISIBLE BARRIER between salt and fresh water..
but I don’t have a problem with your hypothetical scenario, therefore, what you
are saying, is that the author of the Quran meant to describe sediments flowing
into the ocean, BUT BY COINCIDENCE, he left out of the Quran that he was
observing sediment, and by COINCIDENCE, this verse matches up with a scientific
fact which researchers have only come to know today, that there is a barrier
between salt and fresh water. What do you think the probability of that is??
You see, critics are literally hanging themselves with a rope when they come up
with these silly little stories... it is working against them! Because they
forget that every time they raise an issue of coincidence, MATHMETICS IS
AUTOMATICALLY INVOLVED! The more stories they can come up with, the more they
dig themselves in a hole...
"Sailors must have noticed more buoyancy of their boats in
the salty waters
of the sea than when they were navigating in rivers and lakes of sweet
water"
Another
hypothetical COINCIDENCE that it matches up with science?
probability....
probability...... probability....
"Waters that have different salinity, density and
temperature
do not mix readily, however they do eventually. But Muhammad
states that there is a barrier between them and a partition that
is forbidden to be passed. This is of course not true."
We are not talking about
waters that have different salinity, rather we are talking about a barrier
between fresh and salt waters..this barrier has been
illustrated here:
http://www.islamiccenterofpeoria.org/miracles.html#Qur'an%20on%20Seas%20and%20Rivers:
as we know, there are
many different types of barriers, for example, there are radiating barrier,
Iron curtain barriers, leaky barriers..etc. The Quran does not state what TYPE
of barrier, and the ambiguous phrase, forbidding, inviolable barrier (barzakhan
wahijran mahjooran) does not tell us what TYPE of barrier.
"Muhammad must have heard about this phenomenon but his
knowledge was
not complete and he assumed that the
waters never mix. "
Total baseless assumption,
show us proof of what you are saying if you are truthful.
"That is why he is talking of barriers between the seas.
There is no such barrier at all and all
waters do mix. "
This is a false statement,
there is indeed a barrier between the seas.. science has confirmed this:
http://www.islamiccenterofpeoria.org/miracles.html#Qur'an%20on%20Seas%20and%20Rivers:
but is also important to point
out that the Quran does not state what TYPE of barrier(radiating barrier, Iron
curtain barriers, leaky barriers..etc.). Therefore, here is the conclusion:
1. Quran accurately affirms
that there are barriers between the seas and and between fresh and salt water.
2. To sum up what Ali states,
he passes it off as a coincidence.. I am willing to hold this as a possibility,
but we would need to calculate the probability of this coincidence, and
multiply it with the Ali Sina's other probabilities he cited:
1/2 X 1/10,000 X 1/10,000
3. Ali's attempt to show
scientific error was thwarted.
Quran and Darkness of the Ocean
"Isn’t this obvious to anyone who has taken a dive into the
water to know that the deeper you go the darker it becomes"
You obviously seem lost
here... from the very beginning of my debate, I said I would entertain all
possibilities, in fact, I even gave you all the logical possibilities:
IF Statement = Scientific fact THEN
(it can be one or more of the following 8 possibilities)
A. Perhaps the author of the statement was a genius
B. A very good guess, luck
C. Perhaps the author of the statement was a great
scientist
D. Coincidence (ex: a poetic statement which just happened
to match
up with science),luck, and the author had no intention of
talking
about science; it was an accident. No intention.
E. Common sense (ex: rain causes grass to grow)
F. The scientific fact is observable.
G. The information already pre-existed in history
(this can only be entertained if we have historical
errors)
H. A source greater than man was involved
All you have done thus far is
give examples of A-G , nothing else. Therefore, you are refuting nothing.
Anyhow, you are saying, that the author of the Quran saw light getting less,
then made a correct guess, that out of the following possibilities:
A. at the very bottom it will
be completely dark
B. the ground is refracting
the light back
C. there is a point of
equilibrium of light meaning the amount
of light stays constant the
rest of the way down.
D. A shade of light must
always exist, because HOW CAN FISH SEE WHERE THEY ARE GOING WITHOUT LIGHT? HOW
CAN PLANTS ON THE BOTTOM GROW WITH OUT LIGHT????????
So, as you can see, there are
at least 4 possibilities. It would be common sense for a person to pick D , but
I will be agreeable with Ali here, and put the GUESS as 1/4 probability.
1/2 X 1/10,000 X 1/10,000 X
1/4
Iron sent
down to earth
"The verse actually should not be taken literally. In this
verse Muhammad is saying
that we sent you everything that you need including iron with which has mighty
power
i.e. is strong and can benefit you as well. He did not mean that the iron,
among all the
elements, is the only element that has
descended from the heaven"
What you are saying is a
possibility, BUT CAN NOT BE PROVEN TRUE. But if what you are saying is true,
then, this will fall under the category of COINCIDENCE. And as you know,
coincidence, is a bizarre accident.
"In Muhammad's language everything is "sent' to man by
God and
that is the meaning of this word andalna here"
This is FALSE. Man, Ali, you
aint no scholar! No scholar would make such a stupid statement... the truth
is..
First, The word is NOT andalna
rather the word is anZalna, I don’t know of any word in the arabic dictionary
"andalna" perhaps you can go to the Hans Weir dictionary and show me?
:) Another point, this error of yours tells me that you don’t know Arabic,
Mastery of the Arabic language is a prerequisite to becoming a scholar
pal......the Quran mentions things which are from the earth, and things which
are not from the earth, here are some things which the earth produces according
to the Quran:
36:36. Glory be to
Him, Who has created all the pairs of that which the earth produces, as well as
of their own (human) kind (male and female), and of that which they know not so
human beings are from earth:
71:17 . And Allâh has
brought you forth from the (dust of) earth.
[Tafsir At-Tabarî, Vol.29,
Page 97]. but it does not talk about the individual elements. A human is a
composition of the many elements which have settled on the earth, but the Quran
does not say where those elements come from.
"He did not mean that God sent the iron from they sky but
since
the giver of the iron is God so the verb nadala is used."
A statement with Absolutely NO proof,
what Ali Sina is doing here, is just showing another hypothetical scenario of a
COINCIDENCE. that’s all....
"Mr. Ahmed in the defense of his theory states that the
energy
required to create one atom of iron equals several times the
energy stored in the sun."
You careless idiot, I did NOT
say that.. rather I said to create one atom of Iron
takes about 4 times as much energy of our SOLAR SYSTEM. Do me a favor, STOP MISQUOTING
ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Conclusion:
1. This statement of the
Quran matches up with Science 100% . Science does indeed tell us that Iron
could not have been created by the earth, rather it had to have been sent down.
2. Ali, suggests but can not
prove that it MAY BE a bizarre COICIDENCE, and you know what that means.......
you got it! PROBABILITY!!!!!! How does 1/500,000 sound?
Quran and
Orbits
"Anyone looking at the sky can see that the Sun and the Moon
follow a fixed orbit"
False. Many different cultures had different
explanations for the sun and moon, like birth and death, and all kinds of stuff..
here is an example:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0917/p18s01-hfgn.html
"The Quran is talking about neither the actual orbit of the
sun
around the central star of the Milky Way that takes 226 million
years nor the orbit of the moon around the Earth that takes 29 days.
Muhammad is talking about the "perceived" orbit of these objects
that takes 24 hours. "
A statement with
Absolutely NO proof, what Ali Sina is doing here, is just showing another
hypothetical scenario of a COINCIDENCE. that’s all.... Nevertheless, it is a
hypothetical possibility...
From this point on, this wild-eyed fanatic Ali Sina flies off in a frenzy..
spinning his own personal interpretations, building straw man, and reading into
the Quran what is NOT their, I think someone needs to call in his nurse so he
can be sedated. Let me respond to just a few of this lunatic’s rantings:
"Dr. Morey, obviously saw you are not a scholar and did not
think you are worth his time. You go
around claiming you have
defeated him? How you have defeated him when he did not even
dignify you with a response? "
You idiot, you are making a
complete fool out of yourself, here is his response:
http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_response.htm
but look here … see how Ali
Sina idolizes and looks up to a known pathological liar!!!
Birds of the same feather flock
together…
Ali, you make this too easy
for me. :)
"You try to debate with some recognized names on the
net and even though they do not respond to you add them
to your portfolio to make yourself look bigger that who you really are"
For God sake take your
medication, you are not coherent, man, you are making a complete ass out of
yourself and I’m loving every minute of it... :). If
you see my website, I have a public debate for all those so called "big
names" between me and them on my website, and future debates are on the
way… as for Robert Morey, he is toast. My article on him has damaged him
irrevocably. The really cool thing is MANY of his fans are writing me and
agreeing with me that he is a liar.. currently I have 2 radio shows which both
me and Robert Morey have been invited to debate... Morey is aware of them..
let’s hope he accepts...and as for debating Morey, I believe he said yes, but I
have fill out some kind of paper work, and get a letter from my Imaam lol lol
lol
"claiming to have won when
we did not even start to debate"
what
did I tell you? You didn’t listen to me, I told you DO NOT LIE ON ME. Where did
I say I have won?? ( before you make an ass out of yourself again, a knock down
is not the same thing as a knock out.. right?) Where did I say I have won, Ali?
I warned you to stop your lying, But by the grace of God, you have been exposed
as a liar, just like Robert Morey, and I believe my mission is accomplished
here in this post, what you have demonstrated, even when I gave you fair
warning, you still could not stop lying... because this
is your nature.
Don’t forget, you must show us
proof for the following statement:
"Muhammad and his followers destroyed all the books that
belonged to the pre Islamic era of
"jahiliyyah". If no other
book prior to Muhammad mentions this city it is because
Muhammad burned those books."
If you can not come up with
the evidence, you promised to shut down your filthy website. Remember these
wise words:
Birds of the same feather flock
together..
And as for your claim, Prophet
Muhammed ((PBUH) is a truthful person and not a liar like you Ali Sina, you bum
:-)
thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
Ali Sina of Faithfreedom caught RED HANDED
Lies against Islam
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